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Post by Deinobrontornis on Nov 21, 2011 22:18:09 GMT -5
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Venomous Dragon
Archeon
The Varanid
The Ora, King of The Lizards.
Posts: 2,037
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Post by Venomous Dragon on Nov 21, 2011 22:25:48 GMT -5
Thats nothing i dont already know. both animals are capable of killing each other with there bite and would produce nearly identical wounds. The only time bite force matters is when it allows one animal do something the other cant in a fight against one another and as leopjag said tom leopards have killed each other via skull bite. I think some people put too much weight on bite force numbers. it can be an advantage but not always is.
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Post by Deinobrontornis on Nov 21, 2011 22:39:16 GMT -5
Thats nothing i dont already know. both animals are capable of killing each other with there bite and would produce nearly identical wounds. The only time bite force matters is when it allows one animal do something the other cant in a fight against one another and as leopjag said tom leopards have killed each other via skull bite. I think some people put too much weight on bite force numbers. it can be an advantage but not always is. Oh please, quit shoving it to the side as if it doesn't matter like lion fanboys do with size! A bite that produces FOUR TIMES the amount of power has a SIGNIFICANT advantage over the the former's bite force. You also don't seem to be opposed to the fact that jaguars are "generally" more muscular than leopards.
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Venomous Dragon
Archeon
The Varanid
The Ora, King of The Lizards.
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Post by Venomous Dragon on Nov 21, 2011 22:52:22 GMT -5
LOL Im not just referring to it like this in just this match. This is my view about bite force in general. I am no leopard fanboy. jaguars are usually more impressive i have never denied this. All i have said is that some tom leopards can reach similar builds and i think this fight is more interesting if we use parity individuals that are the best that each cat has to offer in terms of build.
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Post by Deinobrontornis on Nov 22, 2011 16:15:24 GMT -5
LOL Im not just referring to it like this in just this match. This is my view about bite force in general. I am no leopard fanboy. jaguars are usually more impressive i have never denied this. All i have said is that some tom leopards can reach similar builds and i think this fight is more interesting if we use parity individuals that are the best that each cat has to offer in terms of build. Well then you will be a very fruitless person to debate with on carnivoran versus carnivoran matches in the future. If their the same thing, then only advantage left is the jaguar's bite force. If we get rid of that, the match is pointless.
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Venomous Dragon
Archeon
The Varanid
The Ora, King of The Lizards.
Posts: 2,037
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Post by Venomous Dragon on Nov 22, 2011 20:56:15 GMT -5
LOL Im not just referring to it like this in just this match. This is my view about bite force in general. I am no leopard fanboy. jaguars are usually more impressive i have never denied this. All i have said is that some tom leopards can reach similar builds and i think this fight is more interesting if we use parity individuals that are the best that each cat has to offer in terms of build. Well then you will be a very fruitless person to debate with on carnivoran versus carnivoran matches in the future. If their the same thing, then only advantage left is the jaguar's bite force. If we get rid of that, the match is pointless. A bite force advantage IMO is only an advantage when it allows you to do something your opponent cannot. These animals are very similar but they may have different fighting styles that allow for animal to do better than the other. I have never seen jaguars in an actual territorial fight like i have leopards. Intraspecific conflicts are another thing to consider, again however the jaguar is short on account while the leopard has many (both impressive and not so much)
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Post by Deinobrontornis on Nov 22, 2011 23:06:46 GMT -5
Well then you will be a very fruitless person to debate with on carnivoran versus carnivoran matches in the future. If their the same thing, then only advantage left is the jaguar's bite force. If we get rid of that, the match is pointless. A bite force advantage IMO is only an advantage when it allows you to do something your opponent cannot. These animals are very similar but they may have different fighting styles that allow for animal to do better than the other. I have never seen jaguars in an actual territorial fight like i have leopards. Intraspecific conflicts are another thing to consider, again however the jaguar is short on account while the leopard has many (both impressive and not so much) Jaguars make regular prey out of dangerous animals such as tapirs, caimans, anacondas, and peccaries. How are those not impressive feats? And when it comes to humans, jaguars have a much higher record. Whereas leopards have been killed by humans bare handed, jaguars do not. Also, take note of how victims look after being mauled by a leopard and being mauled by a jaguar. Victims of leopards: Victims of jaguars: Convinced yet at the power of the bite?
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Venomous Dragon
Archeon
The Varanid
The Ora, King of The Lizards.
Posts: 2,037
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Post by Venomous Dragon on Nov 22, 2011 23:09:49 GMT -5
Cherry picking pics proves nothing sorry.
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Post by Deinobrontornis on Nov 23, 2011 0:50:10 GMT -5
Cherry picking pics proves nothing sorry. You are one stubborn **************! I've given you everything there is to show you the superiority of the jaguar to the leopard. What's next, do you want a jaguar and leopard right in your face?
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Venomous Dragon
Archeon
The Varanid
The Ora, King of The Lizards.
Posts: 2,037
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Post by Venomous Dragon on Nov 23, 2011 1:13:08 GMT -5
Cherry picking pics proves nothing sorry. You are one stubborn **************! I've given you everything there is to show you the superiority of the jaguar to the leopard. What's next, do you want a jaguar and leopard right in your face? Im not being stubborn. The fact is anyone can pick pictures that favour one animal over another. It doesnt mean anything. Also attacks on humans arnt a good path to take as some leopards are some of the most prolific man eaters. killing humans in the hundreds(very rare and doesnt happen anymore). listverse.com/2010/10/16/top-10-worst-man-eaters-in-history/there is also an account on the show fatal attractions where a woman was scalped by her leopard.
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Venomous Dragon
Archeon
The Varanid
The Ora, King of The Lizards.
Posts: 2,037
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Post by Venomous Dragon on Nov 23, 2011 1:26:11 GMT -5
www.thehindu.com/news/states/tamil-nadu/article1452183.eceFrom what ive read 4 year old tigresses weigh in the 100kg-130kg range(not a solid number im having difficulty finding growth charts)so i pulled that number out of a couple different things I read. which is pretty close to the weight of your average male leopard in pounds.
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Post by Deinobrontornis on Nov 23, 2011 11:32:29 GMT -5
I'll review my points one more time! One, the jaguar is larger, averaging about 80 kg and weighing a maximum of 160 kg. The leopard however, averages a mere 60 kg and weighs a maximum of 96.5-109 kg. Two, the jaguar is generally more robust and muscular than the leopard. Three, the jaguar has a stronger bite force, being about 4 times as powerful as the leopard's bite. And as for more impressive feats performed by the leopard...well...keep in mind the jaguar is the largest terrestrial predator in its ecosystem. There are no lions, packs of hyena and wild dogs, or enormous 500 kg+ sized mammals roaming around either.
There, I am done arguing here! Unless you feel one of these claims is incorrect and you have sources to back it up, don't bother on replying.
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Venomous Dragon
Archeon
The Varanid
The Ora, King of The Lizards.
Posts: 2,037
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Post by Venomous Dragon on Nov 23, 2011 19:32:49 GMT -5
I'll review my points one more time! One, the jaguar is larger, averaging about 80 kg and weighing a maximum of 160 kg. The leopard however, averages a mere 60 kg and weighs a maximum of 96.5-109 kg. Two, the jaguar is generally more robust and muscular than the leopard. Three, the jaguar has a stronger bite force, being about 4 times as powerful as the leopard's bite. And as for more impressive feats performed by the leopard...well...keep in mind the jaguar is the largest terrestrial predator in its ecosystem. There are no lions, packs of hyena and wild dogs, or enormous 500 kg+ sized mammals roaming around either. There, I am done arguing here! Unless you feel one of these claims is incorrect and you have sources to back it up, don't bother on replying. id like to say that there range does overlap the cougars and i have never heard of them fighting each other. even if they have different environment preferences there paths are bound to cross sometimes. I would also like to say that I have never denied that your average jaguar will beat your average your leopard. My arguments were more to draw the conclusion that under the right circumstances (a powerful enough tom) they can fight the jaguar on par and perhaps even surpass them. My tiger account also proves that the leopard can fight seemingly on par with cats much larger than themselves. The tom leopard likely had a great deal more combat experience but the feat is still impressive.
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Post by Canid Cetus Aves on Nov 23, 2011 20:51:47 GMT -5
I still think the Jaguar wins this one. Even at parity, it has a stronger bite, as Deinobrontornis mentioned on the first page.
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Post by LeopJag on Nov 28, 2011 3:59:38 GMT -5
If we use just average specimens, this is a pointless mismatch in favor of the jaguar...i think this would be much better fight if the leopard is an exceptional prime tom like the one in my comparison pic - that guy would put up a good fight with male Amazonian jag (smaller than the Pantanal subspecies but larger than the northern jags), and possibly even a close match - still give the jaguar the edge though, because of its higher bite force and relatively more robust forelimbs. an Amazonian female would beat the crap out of that mediocre leopard featured in this thread,, and the biggest pantanal toms would annihilate any leopard in a fight to the finish because it has too much of a size/weight advantage... a 130lb african male could certainly beat a small 120lb northern jaguar.
male leops over 5 years of age, can develop very large skulls in relation to their body size along with well developed sagital crests on top for a fair amount of jaw muscle attachment...these two factors are pretty reliable indicators of bite force. a study posted by Chui on Carnivora showed that some male leopard skulls from Iran (and India too if i'm not mistaken), approach those of a tigeress' in size. further, there appear to be no specifications on any species in regards to bite force such as age, gender or subspecies...but your average amazonian tom wouldn't have a biteforce that much (4x) higher than a good prime example of a leopard..
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