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Post by DinosaurMichael on Mar 3, 2012 9:21:10 GMT -5
Smilodon - Smilodon FatalisSmilodon ( /ˈsmaɪlədɒn/), often called a saber-toothed cat or wrongly a saber-toothed tiger, is an extinct genus of machairodonts. This saber-toothed cat was endemic to North America and South America, living from near the beginning through the very end of the Pleistocene epoch (2.5 mya—10,000 years ago). The nickname "saber-tooth" refers to the extreme length of their maxillary canines. Despite the colloquial name "saber-toothed tiger", Smilodon is not a tiger; the latter belongs to subfamily Pantherinae, whereas Smilodon belongs to subfamily Machairodontinae. The name Smilodon comes from Greek: σμίλη, smilē, "chisel" together with ὀδoύς (hodoús), "tooth", or in the genitive: ὀδoύς, ὀδόντος, odóntos In size it was between Smilodon gracilis and Smilodon populator, and about the same as the largest surviving cat, the Siberian Tiger. This species was about 1 m high at the shoulder and is estimated to have ranged from 160 to 280 kg (350 to 620 lb). Sometimes two additional species are recognized, Smilodon californicus and Smilodon floridanus, but usually they are considered to be subspecies of Smilodon fatalis.  BoarCroc - Kaprosuchus saharicusKaprosuchus is an extinct genus of mahajangasuchid crocodyliform. It is known from a single nearly complete skull collected from the Upper Cretaceous Echkar Formation of Niger. The name means "boar crocodile" from the Greek kapros ("boar") and souchos ("crocodile") in reference to its unusually large caniniform teeth which resemble those of a boar. It has been nicknamed "BoarCroc" by Paul Sereno and Hans Larsson, who first described the genus in a monograph published in ZooKeys in 2009 along with other Saharan crocodyliformes such as Anatosuchus and Laganosuchus. The type species is K. saharicus. Kaprosuchus is estimated to have been around 6 metres (20 feet) in length. It possesses three sets of tusk-like caniniform teeth that project above and below the skull, one of which in the lower jaw fits into notches in upper jaw. This type of dentition is not seen in any other known crocodyliform. Another unique characteristic of Kaprosuchus is the presence of large, rugose horns formed from the squamosal and parietal bones that project posteriorly from the skull. Smaller projections are also seen in the closely related Mahajangasuchus. The snout of Kaprosuchus shows generalized proportions and the naris is positioned dorsally. In Kaprosuchus many teeth are hypertrophied and labiolingually (laterally) compressed, unlike those of crocodyliforms with similarly shallow snouts, which are usually subconical and of moderate length. Another difference between the skull of Kaprosuchus and those of crocodyliforms that also possess dorsoventrally compressed snouts is the great depth of the posterior portion of the skull. In Kaprosuchus, the orbits (i.e., eye sockets) open laterally and are angled slightly forward rather than upward. The orbits turned forward suggest that there was somewhat stereoscopic vision, i.e., an overlap in the visual field of the animal. The surfaces of the premaxillae are rugose with the edges elevated above the body of the bone, suggesting that a keratinous shield would have been supported by the rugosities at the tip of the snout. Along the interpremaxillary suture, the area where the two premaxillae meet, the surface is smooth, giving the paired rugosity of the premaxillae the resemblance of a moustache in anterior view. 
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Post by Canid Cetus Aves on Mar 3, 2012 12:10:51 GMT -5
Interesting match. But at 20 feet, I think the Kaprosuchus would win here.
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Post by DinosaurMichael on Mar 4, 2012 16:43:19 GMT -5
Interesting match. But at 20 feet, I think the Kaprosuchus would win here. 20 feet wasn't Kaprosuchus average length. It was probably it's maximum. Anyway I think this would be a close fight. I think it would be 50/50. |
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Post by Canid Cetus Aves on Mar 4, 2012 22:23:43 GMT -5
Okay, then at parity I'd say 50/50.
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Godzillasaurus
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Post by Godzillasaurus on Nov 5, 2013 13:14:32 GMT -5
Interesting match. But at 20 feet, I think the Kaprosuchus would win here. 20 feet wasn't Kaprosuchus average length. It was probably it's maximum. Anyway I think this would be a close fight. I think it would be 50/50. 20 feet is still big for crocodilian standards today. Lolong (the world's largest recorded crocodile) was around 23 feet when he was killed. Kaprosuchus was most definitely the larger animal here. Even without a size advantage, it was still much better armed, with its 6 enlarged caniniform teeth (which were designed for piercing deeply with powerful driving), much more powerful bite force (a much more robust snout build in general), and thick hide.The skull of the crocodylomorph was actually quite thick, which helped support powerful jaws and provided a lot of vital defense |
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Post by Venomous Dragon on Nov 5, 2013 13:33:16 GMT -5
Boarcroc holds the stadard Crocodilian
advantages but has greater mobility and more fearsome teeth, Fatalis however as less effective weaponry in comparison to modern patherines, in my opinion.
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Post by DinosaurMichael on Nov 5, 2013 15:40:51 GMT -5
20 feet wasn't Kaprosuchus average length. It was probably it's maximum. Anyway I think this would be a close fight. I think it would be 50/50. 20 feet is still big for crocodilian standards today. Lolong (the world's largest recorded crocodile) was around 23 feet when he was killed. Kaprosuchus was most definitely the larger animal here. Even without a size advantage, it was still much better armed, with its 6 enlarged caniniform teeth (which were laterally compressed and serrated), much more powerful bite force, and thick hide.The skull of the crocodylomorph was actually quite thick, which helped support powerful jaws and provided a lot of vital defense No actually it's not as big as you think. On average the BoarCroc was only the size of an American Alligator. Since it's skull is the size of an American Alligator's skull. So the BoarCroc is only 400-500 lbs. Just something I found out long ago. |
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Post by Dinopithecus on Nov 5, 2013 17:40:00 GMT -5
^ Correct. I'm going to assume this is at parity, so, I guess I'd lean towards Smilodon. The sabertooth would, IMO, grab onto Kaprosuchus with its powerful forelimbs, perhaps pin it down with said forelimbs and its total body weight, and then driving its giant maxillary canines through the croc's throat and pull back, causing humongous blood loss and severing vital blood vessels. I'm pretty sure this is how machairodontines killed their prey, and I frankly see that happening more often than Kaprosuchus getting a lucky chance and crippling the Smilodon with its bite. So Smilodon probably at least 51-55% (rough estimate).
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Post by Godzillasaurus on Nov 5, 2013 19:40:52 GMT -5
20 feet is still big for crocodilian standards today. Lolong (the world's largest recorded crocodile) was around 23 feet when he was killed. Kaprosuchus was most definitely the larger animal here. Even without a size advantage, it was still much better armed, with its 6 enlarged caniniform teeth (which were laterally compressed and serrated), much more powerful bite force, and thick hide.The skull of the crocodylomorph was actually quite thick, which helped support powerful jaws and provided a lot of vital defense No actually it's not as big as you think. On average the BoarCroc was only the size of an American Alligator. Since it's skull is the size of an American Alligator's skull. So the BoarCroc is only 400-500 lbs. Just something I found out long ago. We have no record of whether or not it was fully grown. It probably didn't have the exact same head to body proportions anyway, as it was only distantly related to modern crocodilians (it was part of the neosuchia, but it still wasn't as closely related to modern crocodilians as a lot think). I believe coherentsheaf showed us a size chart once on Carnivora, but the main problem with it is the fact that we have only found a complete skull of the animal. If we had other fossils to work with, it would be much easier to get a good idea of its size. It would be a lot more difficult than you think for the smilodon to simply pin its opponent down. After all, the mahajungasuchid was a primarily terrestrial animal, which means that it was a lot faster and more agile on land than modern crocodilians. It has even been speculated that the kaprosuchus could use its heavily-armored head and jaws to "bull over" prey. The smilodon would need to bite the crocodylomorph in a place where it is not armored, but the latter could easily cripple its opponent with only a couple of bites with the deadly conjunction of its long and robust teeth and powerful bite force. The smilodon needs to carefully position a bite whiles its opposer does not due to its much longer and more powerful jaws. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2013 14:19:03 GMT -5
No actually it's not as big as you think. On average the BoarCroc was only the size of an American Alligator. Since it's skull is the size of an American Alligator's skull. So the BoarCroc is only 400-500 lbs. Just something I found out long ago. We have no record of whether or not it was fully grown. It probably didn't have the exact same head to body proportions anyway, as it was only distantly related to modern crocodilians (it was part of the neosuchia, but it still wasn't as closely related to modern crocodilians as a lot think). I believe coherentsheaf showed us a size chart once on Carnivora, but the main problem with it is the fact that we have only found a complete skull of the animal. If we had other fossils to work with, it would be much easier to get a good idea of its size. It would be a lot more difficult than you think for the smilodon to simply pin its opponent down. After all, the mahajungasuchid was a primarily terrestrial animal, which means that it was a lot faster and more agile on land than modern crocodilians. It has even been speculated that the kaprosuchus could use its heavily-armored head and jaws to "bull over" prey. The smilodon would need to bite the crocodylomorph in a place where it is not armored, but the latter could easily cripple its opponent with only a couple of bites with the deadly conjunction of its long serrated teeth and powerful bite force. The smilodon needs to carefully position a bite whiles its opposer does not due to its much longer jaws. Size should be based on what fossils we have. Saying that Kaprosuchus is 20 feet 2000 lbs when it was discovered that its skull is only the size of an alligator is wrong. Is it known that other relatives of Kapro had proportionately small skulls compared to an alligator? Also why are do you think the crocodile would be as well-armored as a modern-day croc? I do not believe there was any evidence for that? Smilodon teeth have been found to puncture right through the skulls and ribs of other smilodon and dire wolves anyways, through the use of powerful neck muscles, so there bite was not totally pathetic like most think. |
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Post by Godzillasaurus on Nov 6, 2013 19:56:27 GMT -5
The closest relative of kaprosuchus as of modern knowledge is mahajangasuchus. However, despite being part of the same family (mahajangasuchidae), both animals are completely different in anatomy. Mahajungasuchus was likely not part of the same niche as kaprosuchus, which means that, if the two animals lived at the exact same time period, they would have completely different ways of 1)getting food, 2)obtaining energy, and so on and so forth. Plus, claiming that the two animals had identical proportions just because they were closely related is incorrect. Different members of the same genus can even be a lot different than people think. Just take the freshwater crocodile and mugger crocodile for instance; they are both part of the same genus (crocodylus), but their jaw and tooth morphology are completely different. I never said that it was AS well-armored as modern crocodilians, I simply said that it was undoubtably very heavily-armored based on what evidence we have. Its skull was very thick and rugose, and has been proposed at having a purpose of knocking prey down:  Ok, maybe we don't know much about its body to the rear of its head, but we at least know that its head was most definitely very thick and, although lacking true armor plating as seen in ankylosaurs, it was most definitely very tough. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2013 19:52:26 GMT -5
The closest relative of kaprosuchus as of modern knowledge is mahajangasuchus. However, despite being part of the same family (mahajangasuchidae), both animals are completely different in anatomy. Mahajungasuchus was likely not part of the same niche as kaprosuchus, which means that, if the two animals lived at the exact same time period, they would have completely different ways of 1)getting food, 2)obtaining energy, and so on and so forth. Plus, claiming that the two animals had identical proportions just because they were closely related is incorrect. Different members of the same genus can even be a lot different than people think. Just take the freshwater crocodile and mugger crocodile for instance; they are both part of the same genus (crocodylus), but their jaw and tooth morphology are completely different. I never said that it was AS well-armored as modern crocodilians, I simply said that it was undoubtably very heavily-armored based on what evidence we have. Its skull was very thick and rugose, and has been proposed at having a purpose of knocking prey down: Ok, maybe we don't know much about its body to the rear of its head, but we at least know that its head was most definitely very thick and, although lacking true armor plating as seen in ankylosaurs, it was most definitely very tough. Freshwater croc and Mugger have slightly different snout shae but like all crocodiles they have a nearly identical skull to body/weight ratio. Mahajungasuchus was also big headed. You can try to hold onto the argument about how we dont know about kaprosuchus body type, but I would not advise going around saying "kaprosuchus was definitely the bigger animals here" with such confidence like you did in the earlier comment. There is more proof that it is not as big as wikipedia or Bob Strauss says. |
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Post by Godzillasaurus on Nov 7, 2013 21:17:01 GMT -5
Proof? The freshie appears to actually have a proportionally longer snout of the two. But it had a much different structure and proportions to that of kaprosuchus. Its snout was not as long and more rounded, and its teeth were much shorter and blunter:  Where is your proof of that? We only have ONE skull; one fossil to work with. We do not know of its true proportions. I said that with such confidence because its skull measures approximately 2 feet long, and that would certainly not signify a small animal one bit. For it to be the same exact length as the smilodon, its skull would have to be incredibly huge in proportion to its body which is, very well, highly unlikely based on what we know about most crocodylomorphs. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2013 15:12:01 GMT -5
Proof? The freshie appears to actually have a proportionally longer snout of the two. But it had a much different structure and proportions to that of kaprosuchus. Its snout was not as long and more rounded, and its teeth were much shorter and blunter: When did I say anything about snout length? I said to total skull length/size. Both freshies and muggers, just like all living crocodilians, have large skulls in comparison to their bodies, with similar ratios. Same with Mahajungasuchus: a large skull compared to its body. We work with what fossils we have. And kaprosuchus the same length as smilodon? I never implied that. Even at alligator-sized the kapro would be several feet longer then smilodon because crocodilians are proportioned much different then mammals. 150 pound caimans are around the same total length as the tiger-sized S. fatalis, but we know who is bigger in build and weight. Felines and most mammals in general are much heavier then an equal sized croc or lizard because of their more compact bodies and lack of long heavy tail factoring into their lengths. |
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Post by Carcharadontosaurus on Nov 8, 2013 17:52:43 GMT -5
I think kaprosuchus would have a slight advantage, this things bite was probably really quite nasty with those huge fangs, it could win if it can cripple smilodon with those jaws. But this would be a quite difficult fight given the smilodon's greater speed and agility, and if it could bite the kapro on the throat then it wins, but mostly i think kaprosuchus would probably have the upper hand most of the time.
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